John Haig "Dimple" bottle

[AlanH]

I have a bottle of "Dimple" Haig but it is not the usual "Pinch" shape (see photographs) I can date it between 1925 and 1931/2 but cannot get any further information. Can anyone help?

I've tried:-
Diageo Archive,
Charles MacLean (WhiskyMac),
McTears,
The Whisky Exchange,
The Whisky Blog,Etc.

But to no avail.

Help please!!!

AlanH

[blenderm]

There are a couple of points that don't seem to add up, you say that you've dated it between 1925 and 31 but the analysis seems to be dated 1881 [can you confirm the date]. If so then it cannot date from the 1930's as these analysis' were changed every 5 to 10 years and mostly stopped in the 1930's. It also looks as if it sealed with a stopper cork and these were not used in the industry [apart from Teachers Highland Cream] until around 1930 or slightly later. The bottle is said to contan 26 and 1/2 ounces where it should read 26 and 2/3 ounces. It also looks to be from a modern one piece mould rather than a 2 or 3 piece mould. Can you post a photo of the markings on the base of the bottle as these factory markings may help.

[AlanH]

Thanks for your prompt reply. First, the dating of the bottle:-
Earliest Date-- D.C.L. bought Haig & Haig from Robertson & Baxter in 1923 and transferred its assets to John Haig in 1925. So 1925 is earliest date.
Latest Date-- My mother worked in John Haig's bottling hall until she married in 1931. (I was born in 1932). She "liberated" this bottle before she left her employment.

Marks on bottom of bottle:- None (see photograph). This in itself is strange as most mass-produced bottles will have some form of reference on them to facilitate reproduction.

This and the lack of information from other people that I have contacted lead me to an outlandish but plausible theory:-
The bottle was never on the market!! It was a "make-up" for appraisal for a proposed bottling that never took place. A short run of bottles could have been made in any of the glass bottle works owned by the D.C.L. The labelling is easy enough to do and could account for the out of date analysis which refers to John Haig whisky in general and not to this particular bottle. The carton that accompanies the bottle is of poor quality cardboard and I don't think it would be used for the final retail product.

My mother did not drink and I think she may have taken this bottle more for bravado than for the whisky. I just wish that I had discussed it in more detail when she was alive but at that time it was just a bottle in a cupboard and not of much interest.

Any thoughts on the above??

AlanH

[blenderm]

I think you may be right in your assumption as pre production runs were and still are quite commonplace. It may be that this was the last "bottling" that your mother worked on before leaving and the reason for the memento which would tie in with the cork being used. It may also have been an experiment on using a cork to let the markets around the world see the bottle finish.

[AlanH]

Thanks for your reply. I think we've got as near to the the truth as we can get (unless somebody else knows better). But thanks anyway.

AlanH

[AlanH]

Perhaps Walter C Hurst would like to post a comment?

AlanH.

[mchomin]

Hi Alan,

Not sure if you've checked out this site--it appears there is a similar bottle to yours!

http://www.whiskyparadise.com/lookin...nded&offset=20

Cheers,

Mike

[mchomin]

-Although yours appears to have been sealed with a driven cork (?) and these appear to have spring caps...

[AlanH]

Mike, Thank you so much for your lead!! The bottles I have seen on Whisky Paradise seem to be the finished product that went on the market. The labels are the same shape but the wording is quite different, reference to Haig & Haig has disappeared and it is now John Haig only. I've seen somewhere when the Kork-n-Seal lever cap was introduced. I'll have to find this again so that I can date these Whisky Paradise bottles.

Once again thank you so much!!

AlanH

[wchurst]

I’ve actually been pondering this bottle since I first saw it, but have held off on posting any commentaries until I could complete some additional research.

First off, the bottle noted from whiskyparadise.com by mchomin is a later example of the bottle listed here by AlanH [The WhiskyParadise bottle appears to be from late-1936 to early-1937, during the period in which Edward VIII abdicated the English throne]. But is still a clear example of the finished “production form” of the same bottle.

The WhiskyParadise bottle is a “spring cap” bottle, and was the adopted closure for all bottles by Haig & Haig from 1930 onward. (1929 & earlier Haig & Haig bottle examples were all driven cork closures, often with a soft-lead capsule.)

***The Kork-n-Seal (“spring cap”) closure was invented in the late 1920’s [Re: British Kork-N-Seal-Agency, Ltd., and Blanch, E. A. April 28, 1928 / UK Patent Application Number: GB19280012519 19280428 ], and was widely in use by bottlers by 1930-1931 on bottles destined for overseas shipment, as a more secure closure during rough seas.

AlanH’s bottle is IMHO consistent with being a “rough up” version meant to demonstrate the look of a new bottle design (*note the rough finish of the glass itself, the closure design, and lack of any production info in the glass itself) which was perhaps meant to give the pouring party a more suitable grip on the bottle in comparison to the 3-sided traditional PINCH bottle. In any case, as an un-finished “prototype” this would have stayed in the production facility, rather than being sent out for distribution, and may have sat there for several years before being “liberated”.

I do agree with AlanH’s assessment on the ownership changes for the company itself, and 1925 would be a reasonable point for estimating it’s earliest possible production date based on the label text of “….owning Haig & Haig, Ltd” (I do find printed materials from 1923 denoting “John Haig & Co”, but there is no notation of the term “…owning Haig & Haig” before 1925.)

As for estimating the latest possible production date, I would have to put forth that the date should be no later than 1929 for 2 distinctive reasons: The first being a review of the neck of the bottle which shows it being of an “improved tooled finish” design that began to disappear in Haig & Haig bottles in 1922 with the Five Star brand, and the second being the usage of the “spring cap” closure on all Haig bottles produced after 1929.
The use of the “improved tooled finish” design would indicate that this bottle would fit in with the 1925-1929 timeframe, though leaning more closely to the beginning of that timeframe.

Cheers,
Walter

[AlanH]

Thank you Walter for all the information. I guess that just about ties it down, and I'm very happy about that as it has bugged me for some years now. Giuseppe Bognoni from Whisky Paradise has been in touch and has expressed an interest in buying it for his private collection.

Two small points remain,

1) Which market did the finished product sell into? Bearing in mind this was partly in the Prohibition era and also the overwhelming preponderance of Haig's "Pinch" and "Gold Label"

2) I make the assumption that the liquid in my bottle is not necessarily whisky as coloured water would do just as well for a "mock-up".

Any comments?

AlanH

[wchurst]

Alan - Honestly, I'm not sure what market that would have gone to...due to
the low number of representations for this bottle form, I'd say that it was not
marketed very long.

Knowing that prohibition was in full effect in the US (also the Depression), I
would have to exclude the US, though Canada had ended thiers by 1925.
***Odd thought occured to me: "Bootlegging" was a term used for smuggling
alcohol, by placing the bottle in your boot (or strapped to one's leg) as a
means of transportation. This bottle's shape would have been easier to hide
than the traditional Pinch shaped bottle :-)
FYI: Giuseppe should be in Scottland right about now, probably going to the
Bohams Auction this week in Edinburgh, so this would be an excellant time to
meet up him if you get a chance...Perhaps he might know a bit more about
this bottle's marketing.

Your point on the "colored water" is quite valid, but honestly I would not be
too surprized to find that it is actual Scotch...Differances in content color &
the effect of the glass on such might have been an important enough area
of concern to justify using actual Scotch to see how this would look on a
store's shelf...Just a thought! (What would your mother have thought, is she
had gotten it home only to find that is was indeed colored water :-)

I'm glad I could be of some service here...You have a very interesting bottle,
and this has more than appealing to investigate! (Glad that Giuseppe got into
contact with you also.)

A final point I should make on this bottle, and something I had not given
much consideration to, has to do with the weight specification of "26 1/2
ounces" which BLENDERM noted earlier.

I did a bit more digging and find the same weight listed on several bottles:
Teacher's
Old Parr
Remy Martin
White Horse (HMK)
Dewar's Ne Plus Ultra
Dewar’s Special
HUDSON'S BAY
William Wallace
All date to the 1920 & 1930's, (most are Spring-Caps) and the Old Parr notes
further that this is "SIX average ONE BRITISH IMPERIAL GALLON".

Might be something to look into with additional bottles for further research.

Regards,
Walter C Hurst